A Neocharismatic Leader's Journey- Lara Khairallah

In our leadership journeys, we learn from other role models. In the book, there were Neocharismatic Leaders' stories and here we bring other Neocharismatic leaders' stories as we find them for you.
Lara Khairallah is the Corporate Strategy Director at Saudi based company.  A young female Lebanese American, married to a Saudi who also grow up in the States, and mother of three adorable kids reveals her secret to upholding her ethical standards as she asserts her values in a transforming cultural landscape, culturally, geographically, and organizationally.
Lara graduated from George Mason University with a degree in Decision Sciences and Management Information Systems and a minor in IT.   She began to work at the young age of 15 at a neighborhood Toys R Us and she has not stopped working since.  She has taken challenging posts throughout her career and consistently was engaged in activities well outside her job description.  Interestingly, they were generally related to transforming or changing the status quo.  She plans to continue her professional journey: leading people and organizations through successful change.
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Transcript

Introducer: 0:04

Welcome to this podcast series on Neocharismatic leadership with author, leadership expert and coach Dr. Ghadah Angawi and executive leader Martin Hedley, where they will both explore the recently published book, Neocharismatic leadership and the coaching topics it covers.

Ghadah Angawi: 0:31

Hello, everyone. Today we have a very special episode, and it's the first one in our English series, where we introduce an interview a neocharismatic leader to you. Our guest today is from the Middle East, a female leader in a prominent organisation in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, a wife and mother of three. But before Martin properly introduces her, I would like to say why I chose her to be our first neocharismatic leader, female Arab leaders are rising and proving themselves as a major contributor to the economy, even as the Middle East goes through the pandemic challenge. In fact, hosting the G 20. In Saudi Arabia, the level of female leaders participants is at its peak of 53%. Having a female leader who is not just that, but also known for her ethical positions and moral values in the workplace is an honour to us. I will now let Martin introduce Lara Khairallah, to you.

Martin Hedley: 1:38

Thank you. So today, we are fortunate to be joined by Lara Khairallah and she is the corporate strategy director at Saudi Air Navigation services, which is based in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. She's primarily responsible for overseeing SANS massive transformation, as it fulfils its role under the kingdom's vision 2030. She started as a manager in SANS and after o ly a year was promoted to the ole of director, she enjoys eading strong, indepen ent team players who uphold high level of integrity and eth cs. So welcome, Lara.

Lara Khairallah: 2:13

Thank you, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and to exchange and discuss about leadership. So thank you for having me.

Ghadah Angawi: 2:22

Thank you. Thank you for being here. I would like also to add that Laura graduated from George Mason University in Virginia with a degree in Decision Sciences and management information system, and a minor in information technology. So I would love to ask my first question, because I've been waiting for this. For me, as a researcher, I'm always intrigued by the past, and the circumstances that have contributed to a leader being where they are at the moment. So if you can Lara, tell us a little bit about the signposts in your life that made you who you are, role models, situations, anything really that you feel, brought you here.

Lara Khairallah: 3:11

Sure, thank you, Dr Ghadah? I think we're starting off with a very fully loaded question. Yeah, I think we can spend an entire session just talking about, you know, what builds a leader. So I'll try to make it short, or I'll try to start at the beginning. Because I think, you know, there's always the beginning to, you know, getting the right fit for your professional kind of profile, and then kind of developing your leadership skills. So the obvious answer is, is the upbringing and how you were, you know, how you were brought up, and the influences that your, you know, your family, your parents and your environment had, and I think, for me, really, my parents were the greatest role models, both at home, and I think in their own work life. And I don't think I necessarily recognise those characteristics at a young age, but it definitely shaped me in ways that I wouldn't have recognised back then. And I think obviously, unconsciously, I started to mimic those characteristics as a young individual, growing up and so if I take my father, for example, he was a man with really high integrity and and I would say unwavering values, even if it meant that he would miss out on an opportunity, if it stood against his moral values. He, it didn't matter to him, it always had to kind of fall into that category in areas. So this is something that I still hold on to very tightly today. And I actually see myself carrying that kind of value as well, in my day to day, be it in my personal life or even my professional life. So that's my father. There's a lot to say about him. But I think that maybe is probably the the largest contribution to who I am today. And then from my mother's side, you know, she was a stay at home mom for most of my life and she decided that she wanted to start working later on in life. And I thought that that was a very interesting transition. Not many people do that, you know, a lot of people have this kind of stigma against working at a much later time in their life. And, and she did it and she navigated through her workplace, honestly, like a pro. In no time she was this, you know, she went into teaching and so in no time, she was the favourite teacher, among the students, she was the favourite employee among the staff. And for someone who had never really worked and was able to achieve that kind of success and recognition, I think is really impressive. And it left an impression on me that, you know, there is no, you know, that stigmas are, they're stigmas. They're not, they're a figment almost of your imagination, right? And you only make it a reality if you really believe in it. Yeah. So, for me, I had, you know, these two wonderful individuals who brought me up and, and, and really kind of led their lives through example, and by example, and so the way that they treated me I think, in the way that they kind of manage my upbringing is one that I think I cherish and I tried to replicate that with my own children. And it's that they really can't cater to my character while raising me. So it wasn't, you know, this is the law and you have to follow it, they kind of worked with me. And they saw at an early point in my life that I was quite responsible and independent, interestingly enough for the age that I was, and so, you know, I think obviously, it's a reflection of my parents, but they encouraged it, and they allowed me to kind of expand and kind of open up in that area. And so I think, you know, at the age of 15, I reached out to them, and I said, Listen, you know, I want to work, you know i'm ready to work, right? I was in high school, and I really wanted to just dabble and see what this world looks like and what it means to an individual, considering you're going to be spending, I don't know, decades of your life doing it. And it wasn't very common in our community, honestly, I mean, I know that it's very common in the US, and that's where I grew up. But in our small community, it wasn't very common for teenagers to work, you know, that their responsibilities towards studying towards school activities, towards socialising, but not so much about, necessarily working, but you know, it didn't faze them, and they actually kind of encouraged it. And that's how I started, I started working at the age of 15, I took a job. And for me, my mindset around this first job in the jobs after that was really not about, trying to understand the value of money, which is what a lot of parents would like for their children to do when they take on first jobs, you know what's the value of money, and you need to understand that, but for me, it was more about what I can get, what kind of experience can I gain from that, from that job? And, and for me financially, it was already a given. It was part of the equation, right, you know, you take a job, you obviously get paid for it. So it wasn't something that was a driver for me, and I already valued money anyway, so it wasn't a big deciding factor. For me, what made a difference and what made an impact for me is whether I chose, because I had a choice when I took a job was whether I sat idle, or I worked hard, and I tried to get as much as I could within the job. So, I started off my first job was at Toys R Us, you know, first year, neighbourhood Toys R Us and, and I started with a friend of mine, my friend wanted to also start working, she was a bit older than I, and there is, you know, reflecting back obviously, there was a big difference between her experience and my experience was one that was you know, really driven by pride. And I was very eager to learn, you know, I was responsible for the bicycle aisle and had to make sure that inventory tickets were up to date and my station was clean. So I took my job and my role very seriously maybe a bit too seriously. But, you know, I took it with the level of pride. Exactly. And I think that's where it really started for me I owned the responsibility that was given to me and imparted for me, to me and I was getting paid for it. But I think that there's for me at a young age, I felt like just because I was being paid doesn't mean that I could, you know, fly under the radar and just do what I needed to do. I felt like I should, you know, give the most, because in that circumstance, when you give more, you get more as an individual, I was open to that, interestingly, even though I was very young, and by contrast, I looked at my friend who was, you know, a cashier and she sometimes worked the floor, but when she worked the floor, she would run into the break room, and just hide, so she didn't even, she wasn't really interested in kind of devoting or giving too much time and energy. So it was an interesting kind of contrast, and how she looked at work versus, how I looked at work. And so, by the time I graduated from college, I had already worked in five different places, you know, I worked at Toys R Us. And then I moved on to a daycare centre, and, you know, taking care of toddlers, including diaper duty. So that was a very smelly experience. But it was a very humbling experience as well. And then I tutored for some time, and I went back into retail. And in my final year, in college, I started my professional job, I started professional jobs. So before I even graduated, I already had a job secure. So I think, you know, if I go back to the very beginning of the question, I do owe a lot to my parents for setting the example and kind of giving me the space to really grow, through my experience and grow my natural, I think influance and those experiences really exposed me to different kinds of people, be customers, be co workers be responsibilities, and even work environment. I mean, it's very big, it's a very different environment, working with children, and toddlers versus working in retail and selling, so I had that set. And that exposure that really kind o,f I think gave me a good stepping stone for, you know, taking my career forward.

Ghadah Angawi: 11:50

It's a learning experience that every young person should go through. And you've just had that opportunity to grow your personal leadership from a young age.

Lara Khairallah: 12:01

Yes.

Martin Hedley: 12:02

Lara, I'd love to pick up on a couple of points that you made there. And by the way, I would love to use this as a quote of yours, don't make a stigma a reality. I mean, I think I should, we should put that on every bumper sticker in the world.

Lara Khairallah: 12:17

But I encourage it,

Martin Hedley: 12:20

A couple of the things that you mentioned sort of a very close together. One was that you grew up mimicking characteristics of your parents. But the second thing was that somehow you were in tune to noticing your father's moral dilemmas. So when he was grappling with an issue of, do I want to be involved in this or not, you were present there. And I think this speaks to the need of a leader to be open and honest with the people that they are leading. So that they can actually show this and a neocharismatic leader is going to be somebody who does that, and then builds the same level of integrity, and aspiration into their followers. Is that how you saw it?

Lara Khairallah: 13:07

I think, yes, definitely. I mean, in looking at, and looking back, obviously at my father having and upholding a really strong value system, and an unwavering one at that as well. There is greatness to that, because you always know what to expect. And you always know the boundaries of that individual. And so, you know, in my professional life on that translates into my professional life, I really do uphold some of the similar values. But one thing I think I do a bit differently, is sometimes there's values that you stick to in their unwavering honesty, integrity, being ethical. But then there's other values that may be through time, you should be a bit flexible with, with how you navigate through those. Because, you know, you grow, and you grow and you mature through your professional life. And sometimes those values become a bit smaller than you thought they were, as as you were maybe in the previous 10 years, for example. And so those values might be replaced, or grow to be something a bit greater than that. So that's how I think I took it forward and I did it differently. And I think, you know, for the most part my dad did avoid a lot of opportunities to your point where they all valid, you know, where they really true to be against his moral fibre. Definitely. And I think that that's something that is really commendable.

Martin Hedley: 14:45

Yes, indeed.

Lara Khairallah: 14:46

And I look up to that. Yep. I hope I answered your question. No, absolutely.

Ghadah Angawi: 14:50

I think it's important that you look at ethical decisions and your role as a leader from different perspective before you take a step forward, but before we get there, I would like also to learn from you. What is leadership? What does it mean to you?

Lara Khairallah: 15:10

Yeah, I think for me, you know, there's been a lot of books. And I think Martin was mentioning that earlier, there's a lot of seminars and books and courses on leadership. And I think there's a lot to say about leadership. And there's many different angles to it, I think Simply put, and really, at the core of leadership is really, and what it really comes down to is about how much you contribute to the people around you. That's for me the definition of leadership. Yes, there's the element of delivering, yes, there's the element of communication, and there's the element of gaining, buying, etc. But at the core of leadership, it's really what you yourself, as a leader contribute to the people that are working with you. And not necessarily directly under you. It could be even with your peers, as well. If you provide the right environment, direction supports, you really contribute to their success. And when you contribute to their success. Two things happen, right, their success translates to corporate success. Yeah, so you've essentially been able to succeed on the corporate level, as well, as what happens is, when they succeed, and your interest is for them to succeed, you easily get their buy in, you easily get the respect as a leader. And essentially, that's, you know, success across the board. So I think the tricky part really, for leadership is managing or balancing, you know, company and individual success. Because essentially, you're the conduit, right? As the leader, you're the conduit, you have a vision, you have a group of people that you want to help you realise that vision. And to do that, you know, you're a conduit, so you need to ensure that there's, that right level of balance so that neither one kind of falls. So that to me, is is kind of in a nutshell. What I would say leadership is.

Martin Hedley: 17:03

Okay. That's it's interesting. And I think everybody has their view of leadership, but it's great when you can relate it to how you developed as a person. And again, I think there's that authenticity, which comes out that the followers understand, but one of the areas that I'm very interested in Lara, is how we can use our leadership skills to service underdeveloped youth around the world. And let's face it there, there's great inequity around the world. Yeah, how could we do that?

Lara Khairallah: 17:41

Very interesting question. I mean, if I think, if I step back, and I think, you know, if we look at the underprivileged world, they're underprivileged, as a definition, because they don't have the right and proper financial resources. But you always do hear these great stories within these underprivileged environments, of people who have kind of transcended the boundaries of financial constraint to really kind of achieve and develop and grow and you always hear those stories. I mean, it's not very common, but you do hear those stories. So I think it's important to look at those success stories and see what are the elements that that really allowed them to be successful. And at the core of it, you always will see someone who had a vision, someone who had confidence to take on their vision, was willing to take a risk, and was able to get things done, either through people or through resources. And so and so going into those underprivileged environments, I don't think so much you can rely on, you know, governments, because governments are, you know, a little too high up the food chain for them to reach down to the, to the boroughs, I guess, of these environments. So I think it's important to teach those individuals key skills, be it entrepreneurship or be it's kind of confidence and leadership so that they themselves, kind of can build that change within their environment.

Ghadah Angawi: 19:22

So that really leads us to what is needed for those individuals to become leaders. What are the prerequisites, that have to be in place, and it could tie in with what you've just said about your past and your upbringing, but can also be something that you've noticed through your experiences?

Lara Khairallah: 19:42

Yeah, so I think we were talking earlier that leaders can be made and leaders can be developed to be stronger leaders. So if you look at the prerequisite of leadership, I think there's two parts right, to be an effective leader. One is your leadership style. And leadership style can come in very different shapes and can be effective in different environments, right, so the trick is matching the right style, or the right environment, culture industry. So if you take, for example, a bank, you know, you need a leader there that that has to be very rigid in his approach to leadership, because you know, the responsibilities there, and the high level of auditing and the kind of work that they do. Whereas, if you take kind of the success equation for a leader in a creative space, like advertising, it could be the complete polar opposite. So, I think, you know, matching that balance of the right style with the right environment is important. That's, I think, the first part. And then the second part is, for me, almost, I want to say almost cookie cutter, I mean, it should be standard across any leader that you see if you if you're talking about effective leadership, and that's really building how they build their relationship in the team, and the values that they practice. And for me, the most important, ingredients are very typical, right, you need a leader that has the ability to create a vision, right? Because the leader without a vision is not really a leader, right. So I think the ability to create a vision, to see the end in sight that needs to be reached. The second part, you know, once you have a vision and able to be kind of a visionary, is getting your leaders or your team to really get on board. And that means gaining buy in, it doesn't mean top down communication, go and get it done, it means that you need to get there buy in because at the end of the day, in order for you to get your team to be committed and enthusiastic and happy about what they're working on, you need them to be on the same page, and you need to gain their buy in right. And, you know, I think by contrast, if you just do a top down approach, you really will have, you'll be challenged with kind of motivating the team and getting the team to deliver with the right level of enthusiasm and commitment. So I think really, the the buy in is the bigger element is being able to sell your vision and gain the buy in and even potentially change or adjust that vision based on feedback that you get from your team. As long as you know, you're open to hearing, and flexible in that nature. I think the third element is definitely ensuring that your team can work effectively. So effective leadership means allowing your team to work effectively. And that translates into, you know, giving them the right empowerment and motivation so that they get you know, the right space and the right authority to deliver on what you're asking them to deliver. And keeping the lights on. So that's in a nutshell, that is really what you're how you're interacting with your team. And then there's the another element, which is communication. And I think communication comes in a lot of different forms. But for a leader to drop and leave and come back at the end is a failing equation, I think for success, a leader and his role, like I said earlier as a conduit is to ensure that he's able to support the team in the right way. So ensuring that they have the right kind of communication level to give you coaching, redirection, and even for celebrating I think a lot of leaders sometimes forget to celebrate. So it's important to have that open communication that happens between teammates. And I think that's a recipe for success. And that kind of handles the part of managing teams and setting a vision. And there's this one last part that I think sometimes is left off and I personally sometimes forget to do this. And this discussion that we're having today, kind of had me remember, that one really important element of effective leadership is self assessment. It's going back evaluating yourself and your performance and examining where you can better support your team. And sometimes even adapting accordingly, you know, adaptability is really important because the format and the team composition, obviously varies based on the project, based on what you're doing. So I think adaptability as a leadership is very important as well.

Ghadah Angawi: 24:43

Yeah. So you really spoke about most of the things we cover a neocharismatic leadership in terms of the prerequisites if you remember Martin we spoke about self awareness, vision and how a leader has to have their own personal vision before they can actually help others. Even implement the organisational vision. And the third one was the empathy part. Martin.

Martin Hedley: 25:05

Yes, thanks. I'd like to dig into the self assessment piece a little bit as well. You know, because in our roles as an executive coach, or leadership coach, get a situation where you get people, particularly a very high technical prowess. So for example, senior doctors, senior flight crew, you know, captain's folks that are tremendous engineers, etc, etc. And they've risen up the ranks, and they clearly have all of the leadership attributes that are there. But their self assessment almost becomes negative, and they begin to develop what's called imposter syndrome, right? Where they don't feel that they're qualified to be there, but they don't know how they're leading, you know, how can we guard against that, because I think all of us have probably felt that at some stage in our career.

Lara Khairallah: 25:59

And I laugh, because I can relate in all honesty. And I think, honestly, you said something here, where it's, it may be only applicable to the technical realm, but I think it also could be applied across the board. And I think this has something to do with confidence and your confidence and leadership. And who you envision and see as being a role model. And often times, the role models are the Bill Gatesn of the world, which are the one in a trillion, right. And I think that we need to correct for ourselves. It's you putting that standard or that role model to be someone that is really more achievable, that isn't the one in a trillion that is, you know, the neighbour or the colleague that has been equally as successful. And, you know, people have the perception that leadership has to work perfectly well. And as a leader, I need to know everything, I need to be skilled in everything in order to lead otherwise I'm unable to lead. And that is an incorrect perception of what a good leader is, a good leader is being able to self assess to know where your technical weaknesses are, and get people to support you in those areas. So for example, for me, I may not be the most detail oriented person, I don't like to dive down too deep, you know, and so I have people in my team that can help me in that area. And their strength is in that so we're able to, again, balance one another. So those are two elements. And I think the third element is, it's the responsibility of that leader, be it the chairman of the board, or be it the CEO, or whoever it may be, to take on that responsibility to ensure that there's always that one on one connection and communication, to give that person the confidence that they need to even understand what position they have in the organisation when it comes to performance.

Martin Hedley: 28:05

Oh, yes. So we really do need some regular everyday heroes, don't we? We need the person up the street who's done something phenomenal. That's who we should be benchmarking against? Yes, indeed, and of course, we won't be imposters because there are lots of them. And if we just look for them, we'll find them. So very good. Thank you.

Ghadah Angawi: 28:27

Um, now I would like to ask you a question related to your own experiences as a leader that stood out for you, and what did you learn?

Lara Khairallah: 28:37

I think, for me, you know, there's always learning opportunities beside, I think for me, where I would probably need to focus on and learn more about is through my people. You know, there's a lot to learn from your leadership and your management. But I think that there's a lot obviously to learn from your own team members, and you sometimes forget, as the leader that, you know, there is a group of people and there's a group of professionals that also are developing themselves and building themselves. And so, you know, I have a small story here about, the opportunity or the openness to learn, and to self assess that I'd like to share with us and I think sometimes it's really a hard pill to swallow, you know, but, so I had a colleague of mine who was working as part of the team, and he was, you know, we're working on a really big project and he was very uncharacteristically like completely demotivated and this was the go to guy you know, this was the guy that you could rely on for anything, you know, menial, whew, it didn't matter. You want him to go talk to, you know, the most senior of individuals, he could do it. You want him to talk to his peers, he can do it. And I felt this kind of level of disengagement tonight and I wondered why so I took him as a And I said, you know, what's going on? What's happening, you know. And he basically pointed the finger right back at me. And so I was shocked. I was shocked. It was the surprise. I didn't even and again, I tell you self assessment, and I say it, but maybe I don't do it enough. And I think that, you know, after this experience, it's been a good experience for me because I realised the value of self assessment. And I listened. And I think I agreed with him for the most part. And it was really because so he was kind of explaining to me that I had, this big project, and he was very happy and working. So I already did the vision, we have the buy in. But what I did was I walked all over his toes, while he was kind of taking over the creative process and the development part of the process. And I kind of even reworked some of his work, and I in turn, demotivated him. And so, I sat there again, and I reassessed myself. And I think I learned, a few things. One is, you can achieve great work, but you can fail as a leader. And I felt like I failed him as a leader in that particular instance. And so, the end in sight, as a leader is not only delivering but also ensuring that your team is a balance of team satisfaction, and engagement and participation, as well as delivery is so big. The second thing is, and I had mentioned it is, allow yourself as a leader to set the vision, but allow your team give your team the space to build towards that vision. And, you obviously will have discussions and reassess the road. But you know, at the end of the day, there's many ways to get to vision and to achieve a vision and you should allow your people to to pick the road that is most comfortable for them. It doesn't necessarily have to be your road. I think the last thing, and I think we talked about it is that respecting individuality in your team members, some team members, so we had a big team and he was the only one who was demotivated across the team. So he needed more independence, he needed more creative space, the other team members were fine, they were working, they appreciated the support. So it's really important to kind of separate or important to give people their individual needs versus a group vision.

Martin Hedley: 32:35

Yeah iit does remind me of a situation where somebody who was quite junior to me, asked me once, and they said, you know, I'm making too many mistakes, I'm never going to get to the position that you're in. And I responded to them. I said, No, I don't think you've made enough yet. You know, we all learn from this, don't we and, giving people the opportunity to fail in a sort of protected environment. Ideally, it's a great way of teaching, because let's face it, we all learn from our failures. But Lara, what really would interest me is, you know, when you get faced with a difficult decision, one that you feel is going to go against what you believe in? How do you approach it? I mean, this is not something generally that you're going to use it spotting instantly and say, Oh, no, I'm not going to touch that. I mean, it's never that simple. Is it? How do you go through that process of deciding whether something is in fact?

Lara Khairallah: 33:43

That's an interesting question.

Ghadah Angawi: 33:46

It is in the core of neocharismatic leadership? Because we talk about ethical decisions.

Lara Khairallah: 33:52

Yeah, and making tough decisions as well. I think you start with the black and white, you know, what's my values? What are not my values, you know, and if it kind of sits somewhere in the grey, I think you have to assess it from the perspective of what you believe is right or wrong. And then take that decision forward, even if it means that you need to work harder, even if it means that you know, you may have to rework. But for me, I think it's it's always very important to stick to your values and your ethics and your integrity, because the second that you take a shortcut for the sake of taking a shortcut, then you have lost your credibility, not only to yourself, but also, for the people that you're leading, and the example that you're that you're putting forward. So, I mean, I don't think that there's an easy answer for this. I mean, in the sense of, yeah, I don't think that there's necessarily an easy answer for this, but I think it's always, you know, secure instincts and stick to your values and in that at least, you be professionally satisfied, that you've done what you can, to do the right thing, and to deliver in the right fashion, right? For me, I take pride in delivering something that I've done with the right level of integrity, I wouldn't be, I would be ashamed, I think if I delivered something and knew that it was inaccurate, or it was the it was a reflection of information that wasn't actually accurate, or I got to that point, cheating, or I don't know, taking advantage of people I wouldn't. I personally wouldn't be able to deal with that. So I think it's always for me a question of, can I live with myself, if I made this decision or not?

Ghadah Angawi: 35:46

Yeah and this goes back really to the core values that in your position where you have to deal with teams and huge organisation, it gets even more complicated.

Lara Khairallah: 35:56

complex, and you almost deal with that on a day to day basis. So I think as, when you first start working, you're kind of building yourself. So you're part of the working environment, before you actually enter into management and leadership. And so you have a lot of things to look into, look up to, but you're also kind of shaping yourself. And so by the time you get to a manager to a leadership role, it becomes almost second nature, you know, making decisions, you don't even actually calculate it. That's why I kind of stumbled when Martin asks, I'm like, Well, I don't, I don't think about it too much. But in the bigger decisions that you would have to make and more complex decisions, I think you would have to kind of rationalise your decision based on how would you feel at the end of that decision? And if it is, in fact against your morals and your values and your integrity,

Ghadah Angawi: 36:52

You don't take the shortcut. So what does that mean, in reality,

Lara Khairallah: 36:56

You know, I've been very blessed in my career to have worked in environments and for companies that have been very well aligned with my, with my values. So I haven't really had too many instances where I've been faced with an ethical dilemma. But I did have one that I think really changed the course of my career. So I suppose it was a blessing in disguise. So I was working in consumer research for some time, and the company that I was working for was bought out by an international competitor. And as a result of the acquisition, we had to move out of our practice our culture and kind of the environment that we're used to into this new or newer version of, I guess, this new company. And so the first project that I led under this company was a product taste test, where, you know, we ask people to test the product and kit and to give their opinion, and then that would help the client better understand people's preferences. And as a result, they would shape up their products, and before they launch it into the market. And so we rolled out the project into, into the field, and when the results came back in, I noticed that there's something, you know, something wrong with the data. And as I investigated further, I basically confirmed that there was a good deal of cheating and fraud, and that, essentially, the research results were forged. And in fact, there was absolutely no research, or no fieldwork had been done. It was people taking in the questionnaires, just filling it in themselves. So, I was livid, I was very upset. And I raised the case to management expecting to discuss what we can do for the client, to correct this error that we had caused. And to my surprise, management, recommended, I basically hide the findings, and just continue with the research and providing forged results. And so, you know, you have to kind of keep in mind also that the client here is dependent on this taste test in order to make a multibillion dollar decision on whether to launch a product into the market or not, and what kind of position they have against their competitors. And so, you know, I was really appalled to say the least, and it was, for me a line that I would never consider to cross. And so I obviously didn't follow the recommendations of management. I was very firm that I was going to be very open with the client. And so we had a session with the client, we explained to them that what had to happen, they weren't very happy, they promised that they would never give us business again. But I was okay with that, I think it was, their right to do so. And soon after I found another opportunity and left. And again, I think it wasntin an environment that I had been in for long. But once I noticed that it was not aligned with my values. And it was values that was not in one individual or one manager, it was a shared practice across the organisation to do these kinds of things. And to not be truthful with the client. And so I decided this was not a place for me, and not an environment that I wanted to contribute to, by any means. So I left me soon after

Ghadah Angawi: 40:56

Yes, you just have to stand up for it. Yep. And the reason I asked this is because you live in Middle Eastern environment, where you are surrounded by the culture itself. How do you define your morals?

Lara Khairallah: 41:10

Yes. And I think I mean, very good point. I think you find it anywhere, by the way. I mean, I have worked in the US for some time as well. So you do find a lot of this DNA across the board, really. I've been dealing with this since since I was young. Since even my first job I can I can remember, you know, being faced with ethical dilemmas I see someone, for example, stealing, you know, what do you do? He's my buddy, do I report? Do I not report? You see people that are in need, potentially trying to get unauthorised discounts, right. So you have to make those decisions all the time. And it it when you're faced that at a young age, you just, you kind of start shaping up, you know, what is right and what is wrong?

Ghadah Angawi: 42:04

It's about the core values that ring into the workspace.

Martin Hedley: 42:08

Yes absolutely. And, you know, I agree, this is certainly not limited to any one particular place in the world. You know my experience has been global. But, you know, I can assure you that I've come across wrongdoing. And, you know, I've been in the unfortunate position of having to bring that to light a couple of times, it's not easy for anybody to do. But I think that what it taught me was an interesting facet about just leadership versus neocharismatic leadership. And that is, you know, if somebody is actually on a bad path, and their followers agree with that bad path, then they would see themselves as being valid leaders, and the group that was following them would see themselves as valid followers. So leadership of course, can be misused. But it's basically because that group has a different set of values to mine, and I have to make sure that I distance myself or take the appropriate measures, you know, I can't be seen, the more, the more people that look up to me, the less I can be seen to even be entertaining folks that have an opinion that is vehemently different. Sorry not an opinion, wrong word, that has a value that is different from mine. Okay. opinions, yes, that's fine. We can have opposing opinions system.

Lara Khairallah: 43:37

And I like what you said, there, Martin, because I think if you look at an individual's career, from the time that they start until, you know, they start taking more senior roles, the way in which they go to apply for jobs is very different. Whenn you're younger, you're just looking for maybe, you know, opportunities to learn, financial package, etc. But when you become a senior, at a senior level, a leader or a manager, at least for me, what I look for is not necessarily let's say the industry, or of course the environment, but not necessarily the industry or the type of work that the organisation is into, I look more at the leader himself. Because if the leader is aligned with my values, then I think that there I can really progress and make an impact in the organisation. And if there is a conflict with the leader, and myself, then it's not a place for me to be in. So I think, you know, as you grow and you mature, these elements become more apparent for you and you start aligning, you should at least start aligning yourself with the leader of an organisation and ensuring that they're, that they're fully aligned.

Ghadah Angawi: 44:53

And that's really good to hear. And thank you for the comments. And I think we're approaching the end of this episode's, anything else you want to tell us before we conclude this beautiful journey?

Lara Khairallah: 45:04

For me, I just wanted to thank you for having me, I really enjoyed my time sharing my experiences, my thoughts, my ideas. And I think in preparing for this session, it really allowed me to, again, kind of re examine myself and take it take a an assessment of myself, and I think it's very important for leaders to have these open discussions in these kind of gateways to discuss leadership and the importance of leadership. Because you know, you you tend to forget sometimes, I mean, ideally we're sitting, we're talking about the ideal way to lead and what leadership means. But if you don't have these conversations enough, you sometimes tend to forget the importance of leadership. So thank you so much for having me. I really wish you all the best with your book and future podcasts. And I thank you for having me.

Ghadah Angawi: 45:58

Martin, any final words?

Martin Hedley: 46:00

No, just to say thank you Lara. This has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed it. And, you know, I'm sorry, I gave you some tough questions, but you came out beautifully, so that taught me.

Ghadah Angawi: 46:11

Yes. So to end this episode, I really thank you, Lara Khairallah, for being here with us. And I thank you, Martin for the questions and the interactions. I look forward to airing this episode. Thank you. Good bye.

Introducer: 46:27

Ghadah and Martin, hope you enjoyed this episode. There is more information available at Neocharismaticleadership.org. And if you would like to discuss coaching or training for yourself or your team, you can contact Ghardah and Martin through the website. We look forward to your participation next week. Until then, goodbye